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GrainBender Protests Apple Patent Abuses

Readers hoyas79, Matt, and gatearray let me know about the price change for GrainBender, which carries with it some sad news!

iTunes Description:

In protest over Apple's abuse of the patent system I am removing all my apps from the app store. I will issue one update for existing customers if necessary to fix any bugs that arise from the transition to iOS 6.

Buy GrainBender on iTunes: $99.99

That is no typo. All of Miles Egan's apps are now $100 to discourage sales while he continues to support the app. I tried to contact him this morning, about his decision, but he was not feeling talkative.

As a non-partisan in the Apple vs Android Wars, I can really relate. The idea that Apple has a patent on a rectangle with round edges is pretty absurd, but many of the patents they were hitting Samsung with were downright scary.

Like the gestures! How can anyone patent moving your thumb to the left? The whole business of patents and copyrights has been laughable for decades, but these guys are actually using these stupid patents to sue the shit out of each other instead of competing.

Apple won this round, which will of course be appealed, but in response Google tried to counter by blocking imports of all Apple products because they use some equally stupid Google patent. Meanwhile your iPhone 5 that's on the way, has many of its parts fabricated for Apple by Samsung factories!

This is all maddening to fans of technology. I can understand Miles wanting to protest it, but I doubt it will be very meaningful. In the end, as with all of this patent nonsense, it is the consumers who really lose. I love GrainBender, and I'm not just saying that because it is the only app that includes presets from me!

September 19, 2012  | person_outline Tim Webb

Protesting the patent thing, really? So you choose to punish the USERS of your app who paid good money for it, all for this pointless quasi-political protest nonsense???

Look, if you don't feel like updating your apps anymore and want to get out of the App Store business, just say so. Making up this farce to deflect any criticism of your choice is just silly. By the way, I really like Grainbender and I'm sad to see it go! It is capable of making some very mean and unique sounds, too bad nobody can download it now to see for themselves.

September 19, 2012  | person_outline gatearray

I'll defend Apple on the patent issue. The entire patent system in the US is designed so that if you invest time, money, and resources, and develop something new, you get to capitalize on the investment (for a limited period of time, after which EVERYONE gets to use your ideas for free). Apple sunk a ton of money to create the iPhone, and there was a lot of risk -- and they protected their investment with patents. Samsung was clearly ripping them off, and got their butts kicked in court, as they should have.

The innovation that you see in the US is due in large part to having a patent system that protects inventors. It's not a perfect system, there can be abuse, and some of the Apple patents are on the sketchy side -- but I wouldn't trade the US system for what you find in Korea, China, or pretty much anywhere else.

I've got a couple of patents to my name (mostly circuit design stuff), and I've been called in as an expert on a few law suits -- it reminds me a lot of the on-line piracy issue. I could go on-line, and probably find a hacked version of GrainBender that I could run for free--is is OK for me to grab a copy and rip off Miles, so he doesn't get a dime for his hard work, just because I want it? Or should I be required to pay the price Miles asks to get a legit copy? IMO, Miles should get paid for his work -- I don't get his app for free without his permission. By the same reasoning, Apple should get paid for their work -- Samsung doesn't get it for free just because they want it.

* And if you think the patents are bogus -- well, there's a legal way to challenge them and get them nullified. Samsung didn't do that. And if you think that the patents are not important, and don't add value, then do something that doesn't directly infringe. Like most of the other Android phone makers, who are not getting hauled into court by Apple. Or you can even license the patents, as Apple offered to do.

September 19, 2012  | person_outline Fessaboy

Ah, another technical dimwit whining about something they spent almost no time researching. Take your ball and go home, Miles. No one will miss you.

September 19, 2012  | person_outline DC

Just because someone finds the idea of patenting a shape absurd doesn't mean they don't believe in ANY intellectual property rights at all...

September 19, 2012  | person_outline Zymos

While I agree with the idea that patents should be enforced etc, apple and Samsung are like fighting children arguing one minute, building a den together the next (well new phones). It's a little confusing.

If I was there parent it would be bed without supper for both of them. And no sweets on the weekend.

September 19, 2012  | person_outline Invisiblesupermonkey

I'll agree that the rounded corner stuff is really pretty sketchy -- but we've got to go with whatever the laws on the books are (or else, it morphs into "the law is whatever I personally want it to be today"). Apple licenses lots of patents to other companies, and purchases licenses from others -- it only went to court because Samsung thought they didn't have to obey the law.

Sorry to be so hopped up on this; I had a couple of students trying to justify illegal downloads today, and they kind of pissed me off.

September 19, 2012  | person_outline Fessaboy

So the patent system is bogus just because Apple protected their intellectual property. Creators need to be paid if their IP is abused. This patent battle is similar to music copyright. Copyright at your own peril. End of.

The phrase "a patent on a rectangle with round edges" has been used so many times since Apple won their patent battle. However, patents are a lot more than squares and circles and rectangles or triangles.

Check this out. This site has been developed, designed and managed by Tim. Imagine if someone came and duplicated all of Tim's hard work onto another site verbatim. This site might seem like just a web page with words and pictures but it is a lot more than that. The layout and writing style is intrinsic to Tim and should and must not be copied wilfully. This example is kind of simplistic but it illustrates why Apple had to stand up to Samsung and say please pay up for using my IP.

Great site by the way. It gets updated regularly and I'm a daily visitor. Hope the good work continues.

September 19, 2012  | person_outline Med

After perusing Miles' Twitter account, it seems the real reason he's doing this is because he's an Android fanboy. He feels he must choose and defend one side or the other for some strange reason. Apple's legal victory in court over Samsung pushed him over the edge. Since I gave him $10 for GrainBender, I feel duped. In truth, I've only used it a couple times; it just doesn't compete well for my attention compared to other quality synth apps. But, I don't really care if he has a change of heart or whatever, I'm deleting it - you know, as a protest.

September 19, 2012  | person_outline Chris

Ahh, an Android fanboy on a mission, eh? Well, when can we expect to see a protest against Google? That's right, their wholly owned subsidiary Motorola apparently doesn't like iMessage, and wants to ban ALL current and future iOS and Mac products in the U.S.


They even say that this will NOT affect consumers, stating, "With so many participants in the highly competitive Wireless communication, portable music, and computer market, it is unlikely that consumers would experience much of an impact if the requested exclusion orders were obtained," Motorola wrote. "Even if the exclusion order caused an increase in the price of wireless communications devices, portable music and data processing devices, computers, and components thereof—an unlikely event—a price increase alone is insufficient to warrant preclusion of a remedial order."

Well, what say you, Miles?

September 19, 2012  | person_outline coldsteelrail

Just to clarify a few points here:

I am not anti-Apple and until very recently owned only Apple devices.

I am very much pro copyright and anti-piracy but the US patent system is horribly broken when it comes to software.

The last straw for me was Apple's attempt to ban the Galaxy S3, which is not only very obviously not an iphone clone but a better phone in many ways with features Apple has chosen not to deliver.

Believe me, I would much rather continue to have the monthly sales revenue in my account but I just can't continue to support Apple while they're waging this war. I intend to do my best to support my existing customers.

September 20, 2012  | person_outline Miles Egan

One other comment I would like to make:

When I started two years ago on the engine that eventually became GrainBender I knew next to nothing about DSP. But thanks to the incredible generosity and openness of the DSP programming community I was able to get a workable engine together pretty quickly.

If the companies in the electronic music business patented their techniques and defended them as aggressively in court as Apple has chosen to we would not have the vibrant and dynamic electronic music tool ecosystem we have now but only a few dominant players with little incentive to push the envelope. Perhaps in an ideal world software patents would encourage innovation as intended but it's increasingly clear that in the real world they're having exactly the opposite effect.

September 20, 2012  | person_outline Miles Egan

Seriously Miles, take your ball and GTFO. Go whine to people who give a shit.

September 20, 2012  | person_outline DC

And shame on you Tim for giving this temper tantrum any attention.

September 20, 2012  | person_outline DC

@ DC - I think that's a bit harsh towards Miles... and Tim. It is newsworthy and Miles is entitled to his opinion. As much as I disagree with him, it's his app. First off, he didn't have to develop the app in the first place... we have no right to how it's distributed or marketed. Second, he sets the price. If you don't want to deal with the whims of developers, then only Open Source software makes sense. But a lot of us have different priorities, so we don't.

September 20, 2012  | person_outline Chris

You obviously don't know any open source developers.

This is Tim's blog and he can do as he wishes, but I wouldn't call this little fit of Miles' newsworthy.

September 20, 2012  | person_outline DC

As I said in the post, I think the whole gesture here is pointless and only punishes consumers. However, I do not disagree with what Miles is saying. Go back and read it. This has nothing to do with fanboyism. Competition is great for everyone. The minute the big guys start waving around their patents, innovation dies.

Think about where Apple would be if Xerox had patented the mouse. There never would have been a Macintosh. Instead Xerox wanted it out there for people to do interesting things with it, and Apple were able to do just that.

Miles said "Ahh, an Android fanboy on a mission, eh?"...
I say - Yes you are... and you are a diockhead.
Anyway, GrainScience App was always superior to GrainBender.
Just pull your Apps from AppStore, no great loss and you will be doing everyone a favour.

September 20, 2012  | person_outline ELF

Hey Miles, I really feel for you - being a DICKHEAD is not easy...
Since you're such a great advocate for Samsung, why don't you create low latency MIDI and Audio Android version of your crappy GrainBender app...?
Can't? Oh I see, there is no support for such things on Android, but especially on highly modified Sumsung crap...
I can see you begging to come back to iOS, but it will be to little to late, I'm afraid...

September 20, 2012  | person_outline Me

Hey Miley baby, can I call you baby since you're such a woos..?
Please take your apps out of AppStore - they stink of hatred and bullshit...
Develop something usefull for Samsung before jumping the ship dickhead...

September 20, 2012  | person_outline Maxim

Yawn.. What a cop out, abandon your paying customers for nothing more than a rain drop in the sea. No one will care about this except the customers you have screwed over... Including me.

September 20, 2012  | person_outline Phatty

GrainBender is crap app to begin with...
Just let it go, just like a fart in the air it will go eventually away ... ;)

September 20, 2012  | person_outline Jinx

Wow, the trolls are out today eh? Hopefully Tim has his ban hammer ready. It's no wonder so many blogs are switching to Facebook comments.

It sucks for users of Miles' apps, but his explanation is entirely acceptable and understandable.

September 20, 2012  | person_outline Hypersleep

If this developer wants to take the moral high ground, I suggest he makes a refund to all those who have bought his app. Then I'll have respect for his stance.

Also, he might want to develop exclusively for android phones and he will become an over-night millionaire not. iOS6 and iPhone 5 will usher in another generation of solid music apps and grain bender will be replaced by more worthy apps and developers.

Thanks Tim for giving users of your site the chance to air their views irrespective of whether you agree with them or not. Brilliant.

September 20, 2012  | person_outline Med

"Wow, the trolls are out today "
Especially from Android side of things...

September 20, 2012  | person_outline Ding

No problem, Med! While emotions are high, I think everyone is at least trying to keep the belligerence to a minimum.

I just wish folks didn't want to make this into an Android vs Apple issue. That whole notion of taking sides on behalf of companies seems scary.

Yeah -- way too many trolls. I've got nothing bad to say about Miles (don't know him, and don't have his app); I disagree with his view on the patent situation, but FFS, people, there's no reason to get nasty and personal.

There are plenty of people who feel strongly about how patents are handled. The system isn't perfect, but it really is a good thing. If you like the technology that Apple patented, YOU CAN BUY IT. It's out on the market now, and fairly reasonable prices. The patents prevent a ton of clone knockoffs, and force other companies to innovate -- if they want to compete with Apple, they'll have to come up with something new and better.

If Samsung (or anyone for that matter) can't think of a new thing that makes their product better, then they don't deserve to win in the marketplace.

September 20, 2012  | person_outline Fessaboy

For me I'm a little upset by this decision, as grainbender is a fantastic synth, especially for sci-fi type sounds.  As a musician and tech enthusiast I'm saddened by the negativity directed at what platforms I choose to use and all the bullshit I read online.

My first gen ipad is probably my favourite bit of creative kit I've owned, build quality of a technics sl1200 series turntable backed up by a vibrant developer and creative community.  Yet I'm told its just a toy, apple lacks innovation, they abuse the patent system (sorry miles it's not just directed at you, I've heard this a lot), only tech illiterate posers choose ios, they hire chinese wage slaves, all they do is copy and get pissed when people do it back, yada yada yada.

I'm glad though that you came on to tell us your side of things, some of the comments and personal insults directed at you seem very immature, yet I understand the upset and venom, as there is too much negativity directed at ios/apple folk online. How I see it is like this, major tech corporations have golden gooses that lay oversized golden eggs, they are all very protective of their gooses. For example, google the bastion of open, one of it's gooses is search where it has a monopoly, is its search engine open, nay. Apples main goose is the iphone, is the iphone open, nay, microsoft with windows is the same and samsung is very protective over oled.

This is where I disagree with you, as apple has open source projects, web kit for one, where you said how you was helped by the dev community, web kit has enabled apple, google plus many others to help break the horror that was i.e, with mozilla and opera flanking the slow giant, now microsoft is playing nice with web standards and not channeling mussolini anymore and webkit is the main touch based web engine. Also apple opened up grand central dispatch which was one of the main features of snow leopard if my memory is still working. 

Like all corporations apple defends its main money spining ip, oled isn't new and samsung didn't invent it, but like apple with the gui, they have invested loads into the tech and moved it forward. Does samsung allow anybody to come in and infringe upon its work, like say lg? hell no they take them to court. Did apple copy samsung in screen tech and claim its was obvious, where the industry was heading, was the only way, giving little credit for all their hard work, no apple innovated and pushed hard with hi-dpi screens and great viewing angles.

Google took the pee with android, but samsung went even further and started to copy the hardware, software, packaging, keynotes, features, accessories, adverts and patents for stuff apple was working on for the future, come on man they were asking to be sued. All this bull about innovating instead of litigation is what apple was doing, innovating, do people really believe the galaxy s3 is samsung being innovative or just responding to all the lawsuits and trying to be not so obvious with the look of the phone. Apple suing samsung has forced them to actually start to innovate in the smartphone market, as samsungs mobile division has always been pretty lame and just followed the market leader.

Also if you are taking a stand for what you think is right, which I respect, samsung is an odd choice, have you seen how corrupt and dishonest samsung is, honestly look into it, they own south korea, have been caught bribing politicians, judges, journalists etc, selling apple intel, have a weapons division and have a very aggressive online shill policy. They are of the cloven hoof and forked tongue end of the tech spectrum like microsoft in the 90's. Android prides itself on being open and providing choice for consumers, being a counterbalance for apples closed approach, yet samsung is dominating pushing out a lot of others, they got in this position through imitation of androids arch nemesis.

Samsung isn't a single dev like your good self, that needs you to take a stand, they are a monstrous conglomerate, a behemoth full of thousands of people, they could of easily of worked round all of apples software patents or licensed some of the tech but choose to ride apples coat tails. Now they have been forced to innovate and are crying fowl online reducing this all down to stupid claims like rounded corners, lack of innovation, harm to the consumer etc. 

Samsung playing the victim is the most sickening part of all this and good people like yourself and tim falling for it is even worse, btw tim I don't think the mouse or gui came from parc, parc like apple was inspired by work at sri in the 60's also quite a few people moved from sri to parc and from parc to apple and microsoft. Xerox actually turned down the mouse as the exec's didn't understand it, also took shares in apple after they had shown them what they had in the labs. 

Steve jobs was always honest about the influence of parc and sri on apple, same as jony ive with dieter rams, they gave credit to the people who came before and inspired them to great things, contrast this with samsung, trying to claim everything apple does is obvious and doesn't warrant protection while trying to counter sue with bullshit like emoticons, frand stuff and prior art from sci-fi films pmsl, so, fecking, lame. Android is mainly a data collection platform for googles targeted ads and behavioural systems, wrapped up in an open source crusader mentality, that was originally targeted at microsoft trying to prevent the debacle of the desktop on mobile, it got switched to apple, googles partner as the iphone changed the industry as google was in the process of coming to market.

I'm asking you miles with a pretty please with sugar on top to reconsider, even if you don't want to, drop the price of your apps, so others can get in before you leave ios land for that great advertiser in the sky, but please don't buy into all the open source bullsheet, there is a place for both open and proprietary software in this world, most tech companies including apple, google, microsoft, samsung use both. Whatever you decide in the end please keep producing great things like grainbender, it's a excellent synth.

September 20, 2012  | person_outline mister-rz

Thanks for the thoughtful response. To answer some of your points:

I'm not really pro-Samsung in particular, but Apple has also tried to outright ban products from other vendors for trivial features like automatically enabling links in text. If Apple were going after only Samsung and only for specific physical features that are too close to the iPhone then I'd just sit back and let them both duke it out but this is just part of an ongoing war on all Android vendors using any patents they can find. They've also tried to ban virtually the entire line of HTC phones:


I am also not uncritical of Google but they've made a lot of the details of the map-reduce technology behind their search engine public and sued nobody for implementing the same ideas in platforms like Hadoop.

And the thing that makes me particularly uncomfortable about it is that these days I see a lot more new ideas and innovation coming from the Android side. Not all of these ideas are good, of course, but as an iOS dev I've been increasingly disappointed by the lack of really new ideas in iOS 4-6. It's not right that products that are not derivative of Apple's products and are in many ways more interesting or at least creatively different are being driven off store shelves over trivial inventions.

And now that the floodgates have been opened and all those "defensive" patents everybody has been stockpiling for the last decade are being used as weapons we all stand to lose, including Apple. If Amazon & Google & Samsung hadn't proven the market demand for different form factors do you think you'd get the iPhone 5 and iPad Mini? A competitive, open market benefits everyone.

And lastly, GrainBender works just fine in iOS 6 as far as I can tell so if you've already bought it there's no reason you can't continue to use it for at least the next few years. I intend to keep it up in the store so you can install it on new devices etc.

September 20, 2012  | person_outline Miles Egan

While I disagree with miles on almost every point he's made, I respect that he has his opinion. I think it is folly to raise the price and make his statement on the product page, as well as unprofessional. This can't be an android vs iOS argument, but miles has invited that element by the statements he's made. It was very incendiary the way he came across and in the future, if he is still a developer, I would hope that he would take a breath before making seemingly emotionally motivated decisions.

September 20, 2012  | person_outline Hogo

Reducing the Apple v Samsung case down to “rounded corners” is absurd and intellectually disingenuous. Read Samsung’s 132-page internal memo about how to make the Galaxy more like the iPhone and then tell me with a straight face that the case was about “rounded corners”. http://gizmodo.com/5932793/here-is-the-entire-132+page-samsung-internal-report-apple-released-into-evidence-today

There’s a lot of ridiculous misinformation in this thread. The mouse was invented (and patented) by Douglas Engelbart from SRI *before* he went to work for PARC. Apple gave Xerox *one million dollars* of pre-IPO Apple stock (at $10/share) in exchange for their GUI ideas.

September 20, 2012  | person_outline DC

Whoa, I have a new hero and his name is mister-rz!

Well done, sir, couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks for taking the time to post on the broader aspects of this issue, you hit the nail squarely on the head.

September 20, 2012  | person_outline gatearray

Cannot believe some of the crap posted above, just plain rude. Miles, who I don't know in anyway, is not killing the app and has a strong opinion about apples business procedures. We should all be questioning their business procedures they are bully boy tax evaders trying t monopolise the market but who make great toys, admittedly. Not saying I agree with what he said, but he is staying loyal to his customers who have paid for his app so what is the problem?

September 20, 2012  | person_outline Invisiblesupermonkey

Well miles, I can see you've kind of made up your mind and I'm not going to go into another lengthy post, as I can get carried away:). All I say is you should maybe consider putting the price back down and go out with a bang, now I'm off to shed a tear and write a sad song with grainbender about a great dev leaving my place of addiction. All the best with your future endeavours, take it ez.

September 20, 2012  | person_outline mister-rz

In protest at this developer's abuse of the hand that feeds him, I will not buy any of his apps even for free. I will continue to support all developers who put their customers first.

Auria, NLog Pro, Sunrizer, Grain Science, TC-11, SP Pro, csGrain etc etc Awesome apps made by developers who probably don't agree with all things apple and haven't thrown their toys out of the pram when the going gets tough.

IPhone 5 today. Solid industrial design as compared to plastic phones. Can't wait. More traffic will be heading to dischord.com.

September 21, 2012  | person_outline Med

 Tim, this thread, without some comments removed or edited, is going to cause me to call bullshit on the 'nothing personal' rule in the future. 

There are completely unreasonable personal attacks, verging on "what are you, 10?" playground bullying bullshit in some of the comments above. 

He wrote an app, sold it on the app store at a reasonable price and people bought it. It does what it says it would do and it will continue doing that.. He's decided to not leave his customers high and dry by leaving it in the store so they can redownload it if needed and is offering to do at least one OS compatibility update. Some paid apps don't even do that. He's made his intentions clear and explained why. What's to argue with? Protools costs hundreds and hundreds of dollars and will happily charge you hundreds more for a version that works with newer OSes. Again, what is there to complain about?


And, even if someone's tiny world view finds something to complain about ( the mindset of ten-dollars-is-forever is inane), calling him names is fucking lame. I hope you live by your previous statements and delete the comments and ban or suspend the users.

September 21, 2012  | person_outline Will

I agree, Will. There are a lot of comments here that "verge" pretty hard on unacceptable. After a lot of squinting and thinking, I didn't feel they needed to be removed. The rule is really more of a guideline, because I couldn't persinally keep track of hard rules.

Most of the time when someone crosses that invisible line, I just send them an email (if I have one) and talk to them about it. That tends to work out, without me needing to get into the business of moderation.

Half the slams were directed at me, so I'd feel weird about editting or removing those. Hell, I even fixed the link DC posted when refuting my round corners over-simplification. I'll admit it was an over-simplification, but my motivation was brevity and not "intellectual dishonesty" as he accused. That was the most offensive thing anyone has suggested about me in a while, but I wouldn't feel right about censoring criticism of myself. From that point of view, you get a lot of leeway here when criticisizing anyone.

I'm just glad that even the people with the most passsion fueled posts managed to keep their heads and stay close to civil and coherent!

Tim, I highly respect you and what you're doing with your blog. Your lesson videos are great too. Your site is my favorite for iOS music news. As you can probably tell from your logs, I visit your site multiple times a day from home, work, and on the go.

Myths like "rectangle with round edges" and "Apple stole from PARC" really rub me the wrong way. I expect stuff like that from what left of Slashdot or in /r/technology, but get aggravated when I see that kind of thing posted on a site like this. There are enough things to get upset about in the technology world that there's no need to perpetuate imaginary wrongdoings.

September 21, 2012  | person_outline DC

Dickhead, twice, isn't 'verging' for me. "don't read comments on the Internet" is just plain good advice I reckon.

September 21, 2012  | person_outline Will

I like your blog tim, I like the humour, the style the content. This is however, one of those moments which defines how users remember you. Will is correct. Some of the above is just abusive. Worse it is towards a developer who took the time to explain his decisions. Right or wrong in his views he made an effort to explain and got abuse for it. The abuse was at him, not you.

September 21, 2012  | person_outline Invisiblesupermonkey

Dear god, I sound a little like that fanatic from over at zaxism. that is what this whole incident has done to me.

September 21, 2012  | person_outline Invisiblesupermonkey

Among the criticisms I am open to, criticism over how I handle other people criticisizing other people is certainly fair game.

Perhaps I should just edit people being overtly hostile. That's only happened once before, but that included ethnic slurs. The comment alone was something I disagreed with entirely, but I was super uncomfortable with having those slurs on my site. That remains the only time I've ever removed a reader comment. I can see how people will judge me for trying to avoid judging comments here. I want this to be a place where people can feel free to share their open and honest opinions, even if it is a negative one about the actions of a developer I like.

I also don't want people to be abusive to developers though. I'm frankly playing this all by ear and learning as I go. I'm not big on rules, and there is no way of making sure everyone knows what the rules are. I keep reading the comments of ELF, Me and Maxim. I would prefer they weren't in here, I don't think they add anything productive to the conversation. Are any of them really so bad as to warrant that? Sometimes people need to vent, and that is a part of open and honest communication.

I do welcome any specific recommendations for how to handle those, just so I know how you guys feel about this in the future.

DC: I appreciate everything you've said there. I know what you mean. I try to keep posts here under 500 words. As you see from my comment above... I can get a little long in my poeticisms, when I try to explain deeper issues. I just want to keep things short for short attention spans, and that sometimes means dipping into the pop-culture well for a quick fix to a complex concept. I can see how that would annoy you. I don't do it often, and will keep that in mind.

I'm counting this whole thread as a success because I didn't completely lose my shit at you guys for some of the zealotry in here. This is not iDiscchord, nor iOS dischord. If Android or Windows 8 ever gets in on the act they will be represented here. I pick no sides in politics, nor corporate tribalism. The only exception would be people who drink Pepsi. Fuck those guys.

I don't mean for you to be a hall monitor here but I think it will be hard to stand on firm 'no personal attacks' ground in the future. Like you said, their not meant to be firm anyway, just guidelines you hope reasonable people will follow. I'm disappointed by how many unreasonable people showed up on this thread! There's nothing weird here (people act like jerks on the internet, surprise) and I can appreciate the delicate position you're in.

September 21, 2012  | person_outline Will

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